[Click-l] RE: Disengaged dog?

[Barry McDonald]

"Philip A. Colvin" wrote:

> I found your message helpful and have started to try some of your
examples.  I could use some advise on the targeting game.  I am working
with a 41/2 month old Lab.  Whenever I put the target on the floor, that is
where all of her focus is directed.  She is more concerned about trying to
pick it up with her mouth and play with it.  Until she is over this stage,
do you have any other suggestions for objects to use as targets that would
not be so much like a toy to her? <

Hi, Philip.

First, you have to realize you are working with a retriever--a breed that
is typically orally-oriented, so it is of course not unexpected that a
young Lab, especially a pup, prefers to use her mouth.

In the process of "shaping" a behavior, we always tell the dog when it has
done the correct thing by C&T'ing. In "traditional training," the dog is
also "told" when it is doing the wrong thing by the application of a
punishment or correction. In clicker training, we do not use positive
punishments or correction, but instead usually ignore behavior that is not
what we want. One of things that makes CT unique is that WHAT WE DO NOT DO
when the dog is not reaching our goal is just as important as what WE DO
when it does reach the goal. Dogs will tend to do what is rewarding, but
they also make very quick decisions about what is not rewarding, and they
will quickly abandon behaviors that "get them nothing."

So you have to create a situation in which your dog gets rewarded for a paw
touch, but ONLY when it happens BEFORE her mouth touches the target. Also,
she must get NOTHING for a mouth grab that occurs before a paw touch. Being
a Lab, grabbing the target in her mouth is self-rewarding already, so you
need an advantage--a trick you can use to get the mouth out of the picture
and get her to focus on the paw. That advantage can be gained by
temporarily changing the distance from the target that constitutes a
"correct touch." What you will do is set up a situation in which her paw
will get to the target before her mouth most of the time.

TARGET GAME WITH NO MOUTHING:

1) Place target on the floor, step away from it some distance to give your
dog room, and do nothing.  Stay still and make no comments.

2) Eventually--or immediately--she goes toward the target. C&T her for any
turn, step, or approach to the target, just as before--if this is still
necessary. If she is already going straight to the target, than just go to
the next step.

3) If her mouth gets to the target first, before a paw touch, continue to
ignore her. Don't react in any way and don't try to prevent it. If she
should pick up the target with her mouth, that's fine. Remain still and
continue to wait. (Obviously, no C&T for a mouth touch!) If she has picked
up the target and then puts it down and it is out of her mouth, also do
NOTHING! You don't want to reward this behavior, either. Continue to wait.

Expect her to be a bit confused at first since you have now changed the
rules and your behavior a bit. But remember, as you wait for the behavior
you are looking for, she is free to do anything she wishes, and there is
nothing wrong with her grabbing the target in her mouth, or doing a Sit, or
going to sleep! If she mouths the target, YOU DO NOT CARE! Get the idea?
Stop thinking of a mouth grab as "Wrong" and start thinking of it as
"Irrelevant."

If her paw should touch the target BEFORE her mouth does, C&T the paw
touch. If she should mouth the target after the C&T, it doesn't matter. She
has already exhibited the correct response--a paw touch--so you go ahead
and C&T her for that. But, be quick in delivering the treat. You do not
want to have: A) Paw touch, B) Mouth touch, C) C&T.  If she should end up
mouthing the target after a paw touch, you want it to happen in this order:
A) Paw touch, B) C&T, C Mouth touch. Note that if you reward her
immediately, you will probably be interrupting and preventing any immediate
mouthing of the target. The key in this step is quick response and precise
and accurate clicking.

So when the paw has touched but the mouth has not yet touched the target,
you will C&T.  The paw MUST touch the target first, though. Since the click
signals the end of the behavior and success, anything that comes after that
means nothing and is not reinforced--as long as you ignore it!

5) But now the trick!  To make it even easier in the beginning and to get
more paw touches while also making the mouth grabs less likely, what you
will do is C&T her for putting her paw within X number of inches of the
target instead of only directly on the target. The X depends upon the size
of the dog, so I can't give you an exact distance. I'd guess that 6-8
inches would be good. I won't go further than 8 to start, and if she is
fairly small, maybe a smaller distance will be necessary.

So, in other words, in the original exercise, you are constantly increasing
the criteria. At first, she may have been clicked for just taking a few
steps toward the target, but once she is going directly to the target, you
don't C&T for the approach anymore. What you are going to do in this
"modified version" is, for the time being, lower the criteria and require
less of her. Instead of having to directly touch the target with her paw,
you will C&T whenever her paw lands within the circumference of a larger
imaginary circle that your mind draws around the target.

Because the paw can be farther from the target now and still earn a C&T,
her mouth will on many attempts not get close enough for her to mouth grab
the target! Since her foot will reach the expanded target area before her
mouth can reach the actual target, you should have many more opportunities
to C&T for the paw touch without the mouth touch even occurring.

6) There is a saying, Click for behavior, feed for position." You'll
understand how that can work in a moment.

Again, if you C&T promptly, you will be rewarding only the paw, and not the
mouth, and you will also be helping to prevent a mouth touch from following
the paw touch because she will be busy receiving the treat right after
touching with her paw. However, you can add an extra nuance here. AS YOU
HAND HER THE TREAT, casually use your body movements to move her away from
the target.

You do not want her near the target once she has paw touched it because she
might mouth it. You do not want her near the target after she has paw
touched it because you need her to move away so she can repeat the behavior
and approach and touch again. That's hard if she remains standing on the
target as you treat her! So you are going to click for the behavior (paw
touches the target) and feed for position (inconspicuously step her away
from the target a bit as you present the food, or show her the food from a
couple feet away and lure her to come to you to get it--whatever works
best.

You end up with a paw touch, a Click, a treat which moves her away from the
target and interrupts any attempt to mouth it, and a dog back in position
to try it again.

7) Work on the extended diameter target area for some time, until you are
no longer seeing any mouth grabs or even attempts to duck her head toward
the target. Then work on it an extra week! You see, the more she touches
with a paw and is rewarded, the stronger that behavior becomes, but also,
the more she does not have a chance to go for the target with her mouth,
the weaker that behavior becomes! (It will undergo what we call
Extinction.) So you want to let her have lots of practice until the mouth
is hardly involved at all.

8) The last step involve increasing the criteria again and demanding more
precise behavior before C&T'ing. Decrease the imaginary circle around the
target. If you were C&T'ing for a paw within 6 inches, now only C&T if the
paw is within 4 inches, and do nothing if it only gets to within 6.
Gradually, over several session and days, make that boundary line smaller
and smaller until her nails must hit within one inch of the target, and
finally... she must make actual paw contact to get the C&T.

As you decrease the distance, if she starts to make the slightest gesture
or move toward the target that shows "mouth interest," temporarily increase
the distance of the invisible outer circle again to the point where she is
not longer thinking of her mouth. Don't wait until she actually begins to
grab the target with her mouth--watch for earlier signs such as starting to
drop her head, and if you interpret what she is doing as "mouth interest,"
then go back one step to a larger circumference and train at that level for
a while longer before you try going for the closer paw touch again.

9) You should end up with your dog getting the right idea and offering only
paw touches as long as you stick with the basic principle---a mouth touch
does not get C&T'ed, nor does it get any reaction or attention. It is as
meaningless a behavior as Sitting or doing nothing in terms of this target
game.

Finally, starting immediately, take precautions to keep the target out of
reach and out of sight at all times except when you are playing the target
game--or eventually other target exercises! The pup should never have an
opportunity to "find" the target on a table or any place accessible. In
this way, you further prevent her from mouthing it, and eventually, the
target will be viewed as an object that you just don't put in your mouth,
from lack of repetition alone.

That may be all you need to do. There is a separate exercise, however, that
is good for all dogs to be drilled in, and that may help with her
mouthiness in general.


DOGGY ZEN:

This is a version of what is called Doggie Zen. Sit on the floor with the
dog in a Sit in front of you. Have a clicker and some treats, but keep the
treats out of sight until after clicking. Take a ball or other toy that the
dog really likes, and place it on the floor in front of you slowly and
casually so it doesn't not seem like you are initiating play. Place the toy
close to you and maybe 2 or 3 feet from the dog. If the dog looks at the
toy, do nothing. Wait. If she goes to the toy or grabs it, do nothing and
wait until she puts it down. Then reposition her and the toy and start
again.

The goal of this game is for the dog to look at you, not the toy. So, the
second she looks up at your face, C&T. Repeat this 10-20 times per session.
Do nothing unless she looks at your face; when she does, C&T. If she tend
to keep looking at you after a C&T, you can pick up the toy and place it
down again, to get her attention back on the toy, but at first, wait a
moment to see if she will look back at the toy on her own.

As you repeat the exercise, you can expect a very fast learning curve from
most dogs. Often in just the first session, you will begin with the dog's
attention riveted on the toy at first, and by the last few reps, she will
be looking at you immediately and hardly noticing the toy. When she gets to
that point, move the toy CLOSER to her and farther from you. (Remember, if
she does go for the toy, you do not need to be within range to stop
her--you do not want to stop her, you want to ignore her if she goes for
it!) Once it is getting easy again, move the object still closer--see how
close you can get it to her. Finally, try sliding yourself back farther.
For a dog that is doing well, you might have an eventual goal of placing
the object one foot in front of her while you step back and sit ten feet
away--although that degree of difficulty is not necessary.

The final stage of difficulty is to start to STAND rather than SIT in front
of the dog as you do the exercise. When you add a new criteria, you should
always lower the previous criteria temporarily, so when you first try
standing, do it close to the dog, a few feet away, where you began when
sitting. Then, as she masters looking up at your face instead of the object
(a harder task now since you are higher), start moving the toy closer and
then adding distance again. There's no specific distance or goal you must
reach. You don't need to push this exercise too far, but at least get to
where you can stand a few feet away.

As I said, most dogs learn what is required very fast with this exercise.
You may accomplish all of the above easily within a week if you're lucky.
Also, in CT, we usually accept 80% compliance as a reasonable goal before
we go on to the next level. I like to get a higher degree than that myself,
but the point is that it doesn't have to be PERFECT before you add some
distance or try the standing. But aim for at least 8 our of q0 tries being
executed perfectly. Also, always make sure you end on a successful attempt
that you C&T.

When your dog is doing well and you can stand and get eye contact with no
attempt to go after the toy, it's time to change to a different
object--another toy she like, a food treat, rawhide, whatever normally
attracts her. You should introduce new objects in order of worth: Start
with less desired objects and work up to the piece of steak. (:-)

For each new object, start at the beginning as though you had never done
the exercise before--sitting on the floor near her with the object closer
to you. Then move though all the steps with this new object until you can
stand several feet away. Each time you repeat this with a new object, it
will go quicker and quicker. If it took 6 days to get the dog trained with
the first toy, it may take 2-3 to do it again with a second toy, and even
less time with a third or fourth--although if the value of the object rises
too quickly, you may need to slow down again for certain objects and train
them longer.

Once you have gone through 3-4 objects, start putting those objects into
rotation. Do ten reps with the tennis ball, followed by ten more with a dog
biscuit, or whatever. Use a different one of those objects every session.

(Relating to the Target Game: After doing at least 4 other objects, make
the target your next object! Again, work it  until you can stand several
feet away and the dog will prefer to look up at you instead of looking at
or going for the target. She may be a bit confused at first if you've been
doing the target game since in that context it is correct to go to the
target, but your goal here is to teach her that in this exercise, she must
ignore the target and focus on you just as she does with other objects. By
including the target in this exercise, you may further diminish the
likelihood that she will mouth the target in the game.)

This Doggy Zen exercise is one that is worth repeating throughout a dog's
life periodically. For example, if you work on it for a period of time
using strictly food as the object to be ignored, you can de-emphasize food
in general in the dog's mind and teach the dog that YOU are the key to all
rewards, not the treat itself. Also, the more objects you train with, the
more generalized the habit will become, and you will end up with a polite
dog that doesn't instantly lurch at every object it passes.

> I have taught her sit, down and heel with the clicker very successfully.
I have now seem to hit a road block in getting new behaviors.

If you review the altered version of the target game now and compare that
to how you were training it, you should be able to identify some of the
errors you may have been making. Three things that I would emphasize to any
new trainer are A) The power and necessity of ignoring unwanted behavior
and not reacting to it. When you react, you often unintentionally
reinforce!  B) Remember that you are rewarding whatever occurred a second
or two before you click. Timing is very important. You do not want to click
at times when the click may reinforce the wrong behavior. For example, if
you were letting your girl touch the target with her paw and then also with
her mouth, and then you C&T'ed,  you were rewarding both the paw touch and
the mouth touch!  C) Be clear before you start about what your criteria is.
In this instance, you wanted the dog to touch the target with her paw. That
should then be the only thing she is C&T'ed for, and every other behavior
becomes irrelevant. If the behavior you want to reinforce is closely linked
to or followed by another unwanted behavior, you need to be clever and find
a way to separate the two so you are clearly rewarding one and not both.

> I'm sure the problem is on my part, not the dog's.

That is nothing to be ashamed of because the problem is almost ALWAYS
created by the trainer, not the dog! None of us need a smarter dog--we need
better brains ourselves!

> I guess my one big question is what should I be expecting from a 4 1/2
month old Lab.

Expect a lot! You can begin clicker training a pup at 8 weeks! All of the
dogs that I have raised from puppyhood (some of my dogs were rescued as
adults) had Sit, Stay, Down, and Come and other basics working well by the
end of their 12th week. Sometimes I have found it hard to explain to other
people how much you can accomplish with CT in a tiny pup. In most cases,
the thing that is holding the dog back or limiting it is the idea in your
head that it is too young! The only caution is that the younger the pup,
the shorter the sessions should be. 5 minutes is enough for a young pup.
Use several short sessions instead of one long one each day.

> She is very capable of learning, but does not seem to be very motivated
at times.

If the treat seems to be unappetizing, try a better treat. Most things sold
as training treats don't taste that good to a dog. Although some dogs will
work for their normal mealtime kibble, most will turn their noses up and
regard that as an insult, not a reward. Also, many pre-packaged treats are
much to large for training! A training reward should be, as a general rule,
no larger thanthe size of a pea. For a lrger dog, not bigger than the
fingernail on your index finger. Many people feed treats that are much to
big, so the dog gets full and satisfied and stops working.

Some of the food items that serve as powerful rewards for many dogs
include:

--Dried liver cubes, which you can buy in a large container, slice up into
smaller pieces, and they will last for months.

--Wet foods such as peanut butter, meat flavored baby food, or spray-on
cheese. With these, you present the treat by simply sticking your finger
into the jar and letting the dog lick a tiny bit off your finger. It's
really very economical since these foods are very tasty, so a little dab
goes a long way. On the other hand, these are not rewards that travel well
since some need to be refrigerated once opened and do not stay wholesome in
the heat for long.

--If you've got a little money to spare, I've never met a dog that won't
respond to Liver Biscotti! Look for it in many online pet stores.

--Cherrios and String Cheese seem to be popular, although I don't use them.

You will also do better if you vary the treat. Rather than using the same
thing every time, mix them up and use several--either a different reward
every day, or a variety mixed together and used the same day.

In general, the more difficult or demanding the behavior you are training,
the more powerful the treat needs to be. Make a list for your dog of what
she likes best, and then put the items in order, with the absolutely
irresistible food at the top of the list and the others following in order.
Then select the lowest item on the list that will work well for each
behavior. In other words, you don't need to waste chopped liver to train an
easy behavior that the dog will readily accept kibble for.

If you think the treat may be part of the problem, also try to train an
hour or two before meals, and not after a meal or a treat, so the dog is
hungry. Also, subtract an appropriate amount from the dog's daily meals to
make up for the extra calories you feed as treats, or you will end up with
a fat and unmotivated dog. Keeping the training treats tiny will help with
this too.


However, some dogs are not food motivated. In this case, you can use other
things as rewards. With a retriever, the dog will probably eventually start
retrieving things whether you teach this or not, and it will enjoy this
behavior. Once that tendency appears, you could use the toss of a ball as a
reward instead of a piece of food. I have a Rott/Siberian Husky who works
hard to get the opportunity to tug on a rope.

Also, you should try to use "real-life" rewards as much as you can. This
means running ten second mini-training sessions all day long rather than
relying only on longer formal sessions. For example, before you put the
dinner bowl down, command a Sit. The dinner becomes the reward. If you are
ready to walk your dog, stop at the door and command some simple behavior
that she can do. Then go for the walk. The walk becomes the reward. These
are what we mean by real-life rewards.

Also, be happy when you reward and put some energy into it. As you present
the food reward, give verbal praise, also. Many people reward or praise a
dog like its a funeral! Men, especially, tend to be more reserved in the
use of their voices and body language. If your dog does well, use a happy
high-pitched (but not loud) voice, and heap the praise on. If she does
something really hard for the first time, use a jackpot--three or four
rewards at the same time with lots of praise. Be animated. CT is an
interesting combination of patience and joy. While you wait for the dog to
decide what to do, or when the dog does the wrong thing, you need to be
silent, motionless, and an unemotional. But when a dog gets it right, you
need to be animated and jump for joy!  Ham it up!

Other reasons for a dog showing low motivation include training too
fast--so she doesn't really understand what to do and gets frustrated, and
training too slow--so she becomes bored. Some dogs and breeds of dogs do
not liek a lot of repetition, so they need a lot of variety. Some dogs like
repetition.

The length of a formal training session has to be adjusted to suit each
dog, also. Short is always better. If you notice the lack of motivation
getting greater as the session goes on, shorten the session. For puppies
especially, five minutes is often the limit of their endurance. Doing four
separate 5 minutes sessions is much better than doing one 20 minute
session.

One thing that can help a beginner more than a book and more cheaply than a
class is to buy a few videotapes made by respected clicker trainers and
watch them. DogWise is a great online store that carries lots of training
books and videos. They are at: http://www.dogwise.com.

So experiment with different rewards, keep the rewards small and vary them,
extend your training into real life, and make the sessions short but
frequent. And the next time you write, it's Barry--not Mr. McDonald, which
makes me feel older than I want to admit. (:-)

===========================================
Barry McDonald -------------------- DogSense
===========================================
Pinto & Little Bits, Basenji Partners in Crime,
rescues Shadow The Dog, Cheyenne,
and Cherokee--Master of Calming Signals.
===========================================
"A dog cannot be bad, it can only be a dog."
===========================================
"Show me a dog that's been trained and
trained and trained and still does not obey,
and I'll tell you who the slow learner is!"
===========================================


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